> There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
> overlooking better or worse things. They all haven’t spoken up yet.

> heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
> proof as possible.

> Let’s eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
> should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
> concur.

Makes good sense. Will continue to follow and participate in the
discussion.

thanks
lyla

Thanks Lyla.

>
> Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.

It cannot be called a remedy until we brainstorm it fully. From my
room, overlooking the next building’s toilets, this seems to be
okay.

There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
overlooking better or worse things. They all haven’t spoken up yet.

The others have to speak too. If we detach emotions and think of the
common good, we will arrive at the right solutions. Everyone has to
bring in their ideas. Then people have to come to a consensus. More
heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
proof as possible.

I think I have said all I need to say. Now, I want the others to beat
this rug. Let’s eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
concur.

Your idea about going to the Bill Gates Foundation for funds should
work if we have a fool proof plan with us.

Thanks and best wishes

Satya

> As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community
we
> belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
> twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
> reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.
>

Hi Satya :

I really liked everything you said so far on this subject.

Why not think of ‘caste complex’ as a group of diseases which are
undermining the welfare of society a) by hindering the education of
children and adults b) by promoting violence among people C) by
taking away government’s time to suppress riots instead of investing
time in good projects.

Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.

Attach more information on the real numbers of young people that
need education, And some maps of Andhra to indicate where schools
are to be placed and how many there need to be. A rough estimate of
cost -of procuring site for each school, building, and equipping it
with edu tools and to make it into a turn key operation.

Currently there is lot of wealth in the world and more
philonthropists than before to fund worthy projects.

Why not submit it to Bill Gates Foundation. We know Gates is both
into cleaning up diseases, and providing education. This a very
suitable project for his foundation, in a country he is very much
interesed in.

These are concrete projects, to be done in an organized way. If done
correctly they will turn into good revenue generating centers which
can be sold to government or private sector to run. They provide edu
to kids and employment to many more people as you said. I hear some
doctors who returned ti India from here, have built universities,
medical schools and are running them successfully.

The population in India is just too big, for any government to
handle. People simply got into the lazy and easy habit of harping
on corruption in politics and that continuosly erodes on the
credibility of the responsible people. The numbers in India are
staggering. To figure out how to provide, food, shelter, edu to all
is a mammoth task.

It is very hard to function for the government in a negative
atmosphere. Intellectuals in Andhra and outside India should rally
around Andhra government. Give it support. Make sure worthy projects
are taken up and concluded and then maintained. It is not a crime to
take outside help and build up the state/ country and get stronger.

It is no longer fashionable to be robinhoods, renegade writers and
useless preachers. Doing, producing, making money is chic.

Schooling had always been a big industry in Andhra. From what you
say, It looks as though there is need for more schools and some
modernisation , good set of rules, good organisation and management.

I will go the route of submitting a plan to Bill Gates and see if
funds can be secured for such a project. In my mind it is very
worthy project, not so hard to accomplish either. Takes a few years
to come to frution, but certainly can be done.

Projects can always be put together and be completed. Love doing
projects. There is gain for all.

Not interested in nebulous things as hurt feelings, unfulfilled
desires, lost opportunities, desparations out of disparities – this
kind of sissy fluff, keep floating about like ‘muscae volitantes.’

Thanks
lyla

P.S: Welcome to the new member VS, who did all the right things,
praised rb enough and got right down to business of discussion.:-):-)

No. Sir ! VS! You are not your brother’s keeper. Nor am I. All
need to keep up and earn their upkeep. To keep it simple.

> > If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
> > should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven’t.
> > Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.
>
> Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had
> worked? That the workforce in several jobs represents the cross
> section of the society better today than before the reservations -
> does that count?

Yes, it does. May be I kept my bar high on the expected results.

To make it clear one more time, I am not at all against people
benefiting from reservations. I have only been saying that
reservations haven’t delivered what ought to have been delivered. Now
that we have tried it, and achieved limited results, we have to try
something new to achieve better results. That’s all.

Let’s look at it another way. Let’s for a moment forget those who
have benefited from reservations. Reservations helped some people in
the under-priveleged sections of our society. No question, but how
many of those is the question? Did everyone benefit from the
reservations in those sections? What would be the percentage of those
who would have benefited?

Reservations help those who have passed XII standard (normally). How
many in the under-priveleged sections made it to this level in the
last 60 years? Did everyone make it? If many did not make it, what
about them? What was their percentage in the society?

What is our state’s educational policy towards those who have not
benefited from the reservations? I suggested that education be
provided to all. To reach them, our policies should change. That’s
what I meant. I did not say reservations haven’t changed our society
at all.

I am saying reservations haven’t been enough, and the progress made
is not enough. Reservations polarised the differences and
strengthened the divisions and set us on a retrograde path. The
divisions are even more hard and rigid now than they were at the time
of Independence (I think).

As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community we
belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.

> I understood Srikanth Bandi’s post as a critique on the
> privatization of education and health and not that of reservations.

Yes, but he also said that state sponsored schools lost out along the
way. I took off from that comment.

> It’s hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste.
> Yes, there’s a divide between rural and urban as well as within
> rural and within urban.

These divisions cannot be killed unless there is a level field and an
equal opportunity for all. I would love to see a day when a free
school would be coveted by even those who can afford an education for
the quality of education that it offers. When that happens, those
schools will make all the difference needed. The million divisions
that are there will go.

> > They better protest. Are you with me?
>
> I’m with you. But I’m also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)

Thanks. We will come to some consensus here before we start our
protest I am sure.

Thanks and best regards

Satya

Ari gaaru kshamiMcaali — I thought the context was
about ‘education, reservations & govt policy’: I hardly know any
country that advocates or implements reservations in basic education
(meaning, thru 10th grade in Indian context or 12th/high school in
the US). May be the proponents of reservations can explain: would
you like to advocate that as well?? if not, why not?

My comment was wrt to higher education — one could argue that to be
publicly funded/subsidized as well — but hardly govt controlled wrt
to quotas etc.,

Let me take this chance to ask our friend Lyla a question:

When you say you oppose reservations, would you extend that to
Affirmative Action programs as well?

Viplav

Viplav gaarU, do you have a country in mind where the basic education
is mostly private? To my knowledge basic education (up to high school)
in every prosperous country of the world is public with private
schools existing as auxiliaries. While the leaders of India have
virtually destroyed public education, privatizing everything under
pressure from external forces, there is not one politician in the
United States who argues for privatization of basic education. All the
arguments are about allowing private schools to compete with public
schools for taxpayer money.

Regards,
Ari Sitaramayya.

Could you please clarify if you meant the ‘averages’
for “reservation candidates” or specific individuals or in general.

I followed for a while the OBC categories ‘A’ and ‘D’ profiles
(simply because I had a few close friend from thost categories) –
they individually most of the time scored more than I did in any
school test; on average the competition in those two categories
rivaled that of open category (at the time I followed those back in
the 90s). It is false to say that those two categories in general
have lower scores than others unless ofcourse one is trying to
distinguish between scoring 59 marks out of 100 vs. scoring 60 out
of 100. To me anyone who scores 59 or 60 fall at the same level.

> same basis. It might be the case that the reservation candidates
were not at
> the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class
but so
> were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who got
out were
> *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.

If you looked at the dropout rates there is a great difference among
the two sections. I don’t have a study on hand but I believe
someone looked at drop out rates in engineering colleges by category
of admission — I actually do not mind someone failing repeatedly
before passing a test but dropouts tend to waste resources without a
result (if it is private resources I have no issue with it as it is
the case with private colleges, but the case of scarce public
resources would be different).

> of the highest state-mandated quotas in the country. In TN’s state
> institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs are reserved for SC/ST, BC and
MBCs who
> constitute 87% of the population.
>

Someone is losing here with only 69% reserved for 87% of the
population (that is a 18% gap), should it not be 87% reserved??
What is the argument for not expanding such a quota in equal
proportion?

> the infamous EMCET for engineering and medical admission – have
common tests
> and syllabus and I believe were designed to be on par with CBSE.

minimum qualification at the EMCET are violated I believe, I don’t
if it is the case with IIT or IIM entrances. I read recently somone
scoring 1 mark (I am not how that is possible but it happens all the
time I think even when a multiple choice test is given) was made
eligible for admission on the basis of filling the quota (it may be
a case where, if an institution does not fill the quota it stands to
lose government subsidy) — may be a good public policy wrt to
electoral politics but hardly a responsible one.

> Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don’t know
what’s good for
> them. Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about the
lack of
> quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
> everything – education, health and even drinking water! The elite

well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
not complain — in fact, they complain about the big government
(that rarely provides these three above).

-viplav-

> If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
> should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven’t.
> Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.

Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had worked? That
the workforce in several jobs represents the cross section of the society
better today than before the reservations – does that count?

I understood Srikanth Bandi’s post as a critique on the privatization of
education and health and not that of reservations.

> I never used the word “caste” on purpose. I believe the real
> divisions today are just “rural” and “urban”.

It’s hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste. Yes,
there’s a divide between rural and urban as well as within rural and within
urban.

> They better protest. Are you with me?

I’m with you. But I’m also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)

Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao