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Education,Reservation and Government Policy

Hello friends,

Here is the compilation of posts in Raccha Banda yahoo group on the topic of Education, Reservation and government policy. Please go through them. Add your comments.

Regards,

Sateesh Kumar TVS

0082-19-781-8012

సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006 - Posted by | Uncategorized

33 వ్యాఖ్యలు »

  1. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Hanuma Kodavalla”
    wrote:
    >
    > Caste is more a sociological than a philosophical topic.
    >

    it may be.

    I liked a philosophy lecture over the post graduate sociology
    coursework I took for the simple reason that – that single lecture
    was enough to claim both the titles of being a sociologist & an
    economist. To become a Philosopher I am told I merely needed to
    walk into the lecture.

    > > ‘The low’ comes from not the way other people treat you but how
    > > one treats oneself.
    >
    > There have always been many castes that thought highly of
    themselves. But
    > the social status and the treatment meted out to them is
    independent of
    > that. The terms – lower and upper – are used in that social
    context.
    >
    > I believe this is a standard practice in social studies. See M. N.
    > Srinivas’s “Remembered Village” and “Caste in Modern India and

    I referred to a changed parlance. My readings from Dalit Networks
    with specific agendas (there are many to list), associations and
    active organizations like International Dalit Solidarity Network –
    that seeks to promote ‘ambedkar principles’ among many other things
    (especially their annual reports from different countries) &
    TamilNation etc., made me think of an alternative & more
    current definition for the status/level.

    Since you seem to like examples, take a look at Pallars caste in TN
    as cited by A. Ramaiah: “The Pallar caste is considered to be the
    highest caste among the lower or the Scheduled Castes and lower
    caste among the higher castes or the caste Hindus in Tamil Nadu.” I
    am sure you can find many such castes on any specific imagined
    ladder.

    he further says, “though the Brahmins and a few upper level middle
    castes such as the Vellalars and Chettiyars treat the Pallars as
    untouchables, the latter do not consider them as their opponents or
    direct enemies. For them the real opponents are a few middle level
    dominant castes such as the Ahamudayar, Maravar and Kallar who
    indulge in open violence against them.”

    Pallars defined themselves about where they stand — over a period
    of time.

    There are a ton of references from those sources above I could list
    but it would be futile if you keep looking for a specific sentence
    that offers a single definition of caste in relative terms unless
    you are willing to see the context in full.

    I cited Amartya Sen once already somewhere else thinking about this
    post, hope it does not bore you; but he assails the way we (others)
    categorize people and groups — using singularities — where as the
    truth is we are a plurality when it comes to identity — if a
    specific caste, be it Pallars or Vadderas, is seen/classified as a
    low caste by outsiders to that particular group, it becomes a source
    for further alienation of that group; besides, they do not see
    themselves as a low caste when compared to a different caste they
    consider to be lower than where they stand anyway defeating the
    singular definition of ‘low caste’.

    Please don’t confuse Discrimination with a misunderstood, medieval
    concept of caste hierarchy. Discrimination no doubt is a subject
    for sociology students. “low or high” in caste can not be defined
    by the relative discrimination faced by one over the other — in
    todays context, it is defined by the way how each tribe/tribesmen
    treat themselves, in current day. No one tribe can say or define
    the other, as it is today. In theory, they all may face the same
    level of discrimination yet they all could perceive themselves to be
    different as in current day scheduled castes.

    Studies exploring this ‘colonial construction’ of social
    order/scheduled castes in Sikh religion and later on Government of
    India adapting a specific order (now all the discussion related to
    the creamy layer within each tribe) further point to this mistake
    of ‘low or high’ made — for some what of a convenience, largely due
    to ignorance & lack of foresight.

    BTW did you find anything new about Vaddera Chandidas’s adaption of
    Vaddera as his surname other than the assuption that he did it
    because he considred it a low caste?

    regards, viplav
    PS. Caste is an explosive term in many peoples minds, I would not
    discuss it on any other forum — I wish to thank ra.ba. forum to let
    this much come through. In current day context I think it is
    becoming more prevalent, intense and personal. I liked the way
    RamaRao put it — it has become a secret handshake. I will go one
    step further than him and revise to to say, it has even grown from
    secret/covert to a more overt pattern. For that reason, each caste
    is becoming more assertive. I am not sure how it ends but I revised
    my views to think now that it could be for the better.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా viplav | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  2. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “viplavreddy” wrote:
    >
    > …

    > Please don’t confuse Discrimination with a misunderstood, medieval
    > concept of caste hierarchy. Discrimination no doubt is a subject
    > for sociology students. “low or high” in caste can not be defined
    > by the relative discrimination faced by one over the other — in
    > todays context, it is defined by the way how each tribe/tribesmen
    > treat themselves, in current day. No one tribe can say or define
    > the other, as it is today. In theory, they all may face the same
    > level of discrimination yet they all could perceive themselves to be
    > different as in current day scheduled castes.
    >
    >…
    >
    > regards, viplav

    Wow! Interesting hypothesis!!!
    – Caste is nothing but an issue of self-worth!

    The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging – rather
    than “reserving” it for the methar community – I am willing to concede.

    If I understand it right, according to this logic independent of the
    historical facts, struggles and socio-economic context, if only
    everyone in the dalit bahujan community can just claim “equal status”
    with the upper castes, the upper castes would lovingly accept it.

    When discrimination is predominantly based on caste identity, it is
    ridiculous to study discrimination outside of caste.

    To better appreciate the issues of “lower/higher” and hierarchy within
    each broader group something like scheduled castes – please read more
    about M N Srinivas’s “Sanskritization” concept. IMO, his analysis
    better correlates with ground data, more so than any other pure mental
    abstraction.

    Srinivas

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Srinivas | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  3. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “C. Srinivas” wrote:

    > The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging – rather
    > than “reserving” it for the methar community – I am willing to
    > concede.

    Dear Srinivas gaaru:

    Hmm. So, do we want communities to switch the jobs of manual
    scavenging? or as decent individuals, do we want to try eradicating
    manual scavenging itself?

    Why should we always think the wrong thing to correct anything? I think
    we should pressurize our respective governments to eradicate manual
    scavenging instead.

    In a lighter vein, the real upper castes of today’s India are the ones
    I talk about below. Consider this:

    —————–

    Discrimination

    These guys wear different attire. Wear a thread like thing around their
    neck. Speak unspeakable languages and claim miracles through their
    work. Let’s look at who they are.

    The attire of a person belonging to this caste is definitely not the
    common Indian’s. He wears clean expensive clothes, and touts expensive
    gadgets. He belongs to the clan of IT guys. They have flashy cars, live
    a better life than an average Indian. They forbid any but their own
    kind to enter their places of work. To ensure this, they identify one
    another by a thread around their neck called the Lan Yard. At the end
    of the lan yard is an ID card that clearly spells out that the wearer
    of the thread belongs.

    To doubly ensure that there is no mistaken identity or misappropriation
    of the ID device, these clan members go to great lengths to restrict
    the entry of others into their workplaces and sometimes by using
    biometric means. Anyone not belonging to this clan has no way of
    entering their temples of work.

    They are a closely knit group of individuals thinking highly of
    themselves and who won’t mix with the masses and keep themselves
    connected by a variety of devices like flashy cell phones, laptops and
    the like. They rarely marry outside of their own IT community and
    preferably only one who shares their table at work.

    Through this continuous inbreeding, they may be attempting to keep
    their clan’s secrets close to their own community and thus restricting
    the entry of outsiders. Their working patterns baffle most others and
    they sometimes peer long into their monitors in a meditative fashion to
    achieve results.

    They have an erstwhile gotram like system of identification. While some
    belong to gOtrams like Infosys gotram, wipro gotram, TCS gotram etc.,
    some others have highly acclaimed gOtraMs like Microsoft gOtram, Sun
    gOtraM, Oracle gOtraM etc.

    Their pravara (resume) reads the list of their gOtraMs. Usually, it
    speaks of at least four gOtrAs dating backwards.

    They usually cluster in their agrahAraMs (called IT parks), the entry
    into which is not available to outsiders.

    They also study IT sUtrAs for a few years before swearing by them
    during daily work. The various sUtrAs are like C sUtra@h, jAvA sUtra@h,
    VB sUtra@h etc.

    When encountered by non-IT individuals, they usually shift their
    language to something relating to one of these sUtrAs to keep nosey non-
    outsiders at bay.

    They too have a hierarchy. There are these yAyavAra IT brahmachArIs who
    go around the world begging for work, then the gRhastha IT guru who
    tries settling down in one place etc. The AchArya IT gurudEvAs go
    around consulting and claiming to ward of the ills of other non-IT
    individuals. They create problems before going about solving them. They
    write viruses and then anti-viruses. They believe in the aphorism
    that “Invention is the mother of necessity”. In return, they earn huge
    chunks of money that they use to buying their mAnyaMs.

    The NRI IT guy is the highest caste in India today. Against a person of
    this caste, there is no way a non-IT, non-NRI guy can survive. The NRI
    IT guy is the one who seems to need the land that he won’t use, who
    will buy at exhorbitant prices things he won’t need any time in his
    life and hikes the real estate prices beyond the reach of a non-NRI non-
    IT person thus denying the poor Indian his citizenship. The poor
    oppressed nNRI-nIT person despite all his struggles cannot hope to find
    a small piece of land for his use in his lifetime. We need a neo-
    bhoodaan movement to correct the evils of this practice.

    Now, what did you say you are? Not one of “those” oppressive and unjust
    guys I hope! :))

    With best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  4. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Satyanarayana Pamarty”
    wrote:
    >
    > — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “C. Srinivas” wrote:
    >
    > > The day a Shastri or Reddy garu takes up manual scavenging – rather
    > > than “reserving” it for the methar community – I am willing to
    > > concede.
    >
    > Dear Srinivas gaaru:
    >
    > Hmm. So, do we want communities to switch the jobs of manual
    > scavenging? or as decent individuals, do we want to try eradicating
    > manual scavenging itself?

    I would argue that one of the main reasons not much effort has gone
    into the eradication of manual scavenging is that it was never an
    issue that bothered the higher castes – they never had to do that.

    My point was that, it is no accident that (even as a last resort) no
    upper caste ever takes up this job.

    The very processes of setting the expectation that it is a “natural
    choice” only for certain castes, (and forbidden for others) to take up
    degrading and menial jobs has been a mechanism to define a “lower
    status” in the caste hierarchy.

    As Gail Omvedt argued several years back, for several reasons,
    think the more a caste is discriminated, the more slower the
    modernization arrives to the professions associated with it.
    But again, there is no guarantee that, even if and when
    it happens modernization will not displace them into
    some other menial position.

    >
    > In a lighter vein, the real upper castes of today’s India are the ones
    > I talk about below. Consider this:
    >
    > —————–
    >
    > Discrimination
    > …

    Nice one🙂.
    But seriously, don’t you think here too, most of them (us?) are from
    the same-old upper castes – it just that now in a more prosperous
    setting..

    Regards,
    Srinivas

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Srinivas | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  5. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “C. Srinivas”
    wrote:
    > My point was that, it is no accident that (even as a last resort) no
    > upper caste ever takes up this job.

    Dear Srinivas gAru:

    I see what you are saying, but things have been changing. Look at
    this:

    About 6 or so years ago, “CES Onyx”, a private multi-national waste
    management company took over the garbage disposal and waste
    management of Chennai Corporation. Being a multi-national, it brought
    with it a lot of glamour into waste management.

    You can read more about it here:

    http://www.chennaibest.com/discoverchennai/citylifestyle/feature10.asp

    It brought brand new state-of-the-art garbage disposal trucks, three
    wheelers, supervision techniques etc. The waste disposal technicians
    wear chic uniforms just like in the west (?). Why am I saying all
    this? When they advertised calling for people to join their force,
    young men from all sections of society applied and joined. Why?

    The remuneration was good; good uniforms, work hours, shoes, and
    perks were offered; there was dignity in doing this job. I have no
    doubt at all that some of these guys were from the so called “Upper
    castes”.

    These days they are not looked down at all. In fact, these guys
    worked like mad to make Chennai clean in the early days and earned a
    lot of respect for themselves. Even the erstwhile corporation
    sanitary workers have taken a cue or two from them and have bettered
    their image as well. There has been a reduction in the quality of
    their work over the years, but by and large, they have my deep
    respect.

    If people pursue a career, it’s got a lot to do with the motivation
    behind it and the glamour around it. If people knew that there were
    bags of gold at the bottom of each sewage manhole, you would find
    people queuing up to jump into the manholes irrespective of their
    identities of any nature.

    > The very processes of setting the expectation that it is a “natural
    > choice” only for certain castes, (and forbidden for others) to take
    > up degrading and menial jobs has been a mechanism to define a “lower
    > status” in the caste hierarchy.

    Thankfully, this is fast becoming a thing of the past. I know at
    least a few “upper” caste guys working as lorry cleaners in AP. Not
    exactly manual scavenging, but not too far from it either.

    > But again, there is no guarantee that, even if and when
    > it happens modernization will not displace them into
    > some other menial position.

    Is there any guarantee for anything at all in this world?🙂

    > Nice one🙂.

    Thank you.

    > But seriously, don’t you think here too, most of them (us?) are from
    > the same-old upper castes – it just that now in a more prosperous
    > setting..

    Sure. You could well be right, but this one is with one major
    difference. Here, there is flexibility for anyone to graduate from
    one social sphere to another. How can this graduation from one to
    another take place in the present context? Through reservations? No
    says Satya. To hear more about his arguement, at least one person
    should express interest on RB.

    Thanks and best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  6. > Satyanarayana Pamarty [pamarty@…] Sat 9/9/2006 10:09 AM

    > How can this graduation from one to another take place in the
    > present context? Through reservations? No says Satya.
    > To hear more about his arguement, at least one person
    > should express interest on RB.

    Satya gAru,

    Making it fair for all people so that they can freely choose their
    profession cannot be done by any one measure. Reservations is not *the*
    solution; it’s only one of a few necessary measures. But thanks to some
    anti-reservationists, that gets the most attention! (It may sound like I’m
    including you in that camp, but that isn’t my intent.)

    Since Sen seems to be getting more attention here, see “India: Development
    and Participation,” by Jean Dr`eze and Amartya Sen. Reservations is
    mentioned only briefly in the 500+ page book!

    With that, yes, I’m interested in your argument.

    Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  7. > Making it fair for all people so that they can freely choose their
    > profession cannot be done by any one measure. Reservations is not
    *the*
    > solution;

    Dear KHR gaaru:

    Thanks for your message. How are you? I hope fine.

    We agree on the above point. Today, unlike in the past (mid 1980s
    when I got out of school), people “can” freely choose their
    profession. Why? There are enough private colleges that have enough
    seats going vacant each year for lack of candidates. There were only
    a few colleges and fewer seats in the 80s that could have justified
    any arguement in this direction. My arguement is not that at all.
    Reservations do not stop any section of society from choosing a
    profession. Nor do they increase the chance significantly. At least,
    not now.

    > it’s only one of a few necessary measures. But thanks to some
    > anti-reservationists, that gets the most attention! (It may sound
    > like I’m including you in that camp, but that isn’t my intent.)

    I am not in that camp, though it might appear that I am ? without any
    explanation from my end. I am happy to be allowed to explain myself.

    > Since Sen seems to be getting more attention here, see “India:
    > Development and Participation,” by Jean Dr`eze and Amartya Sen.
    > Reservations is mentioned only briefly in the 500+ page book!

    I haven’t read this so far. May be I am going to repeat some of what
    he said or may be I will say something stupid. Who knows? You might
    have to pass judgement quite freely after hearing my arguement.

    > With that, yes, I’m interested in your argument.

    Thanks once again.

    First things first. We need equality of all people in this country.
    There is no equality right now even if we do claim there is. The
    disparities are apparent.

    How do I say that? In my new job, I had been interviewing at least 50
    people a week for the past few months. I am sorry for so many people
    that come for the interviews. They mostly come from the villages in
    TN. We do not offer any call centre or software jobs in the company I
    work for. So, people who can be considered average come for these
    interviews.

    I am shocked at the quality of people that are there in that lot. I
    am truly sorry to say this and I am not exaggerating. Most of these
    guys can’t think coherently. They are “not with it” to use an
    American phrase. I think it’s not their fault.

    Any aim of our future educational policies should be to bring these
    people to be on par with the more urbanized (more educated?) group.
    Otherwise, I think we are doomed as a nation. For achieving this, I
    don’t think “reservations” are a soluton. We need these people to be
    good and on par with the rest. What is happening right now is
    something that reminds me of the following story I read somewhere.
    Though I am quoting it, I am retelling it my own words.

    “There was this butterfly that was struggling to get out of its
    cocoon. Some passerby saw the butterfly’s struggle. He felt sorry for
    the trouble it was undergoing. It was trying to make its way into the
    world through a small hole. The guy who was passing by thought that
    it would be able to get out of the cocoon if he made the hole larger.
    So, in his anxiety to do some good, he made the opening in the cocoon
    larger. The butterfly hopped out easily.

    When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its wings.
    Fluid goes to the edges in its wings thus making them grow larger and
    stronger. By the end of the struggle, the butterfly’s wings are fully
    grown. It’s ready to fly.

    By making the orifice larger, the passerby did not allow the current
    butterfly’s wings to grow. It hopped out without its wings fully
    grown. It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will
    hop all its life.”

    Now, how is this relevant here? Our educational policy is skewed.
    There is not one system of education in this country. There is CBSE
    (Central board of secondary education), and there are the numerous
    state boards of education, there are matriculation boards, montessori
    stuff and the like. That is, the X standard student of one board is
    not equal to the X standard student of another board. The gap is
    pretty wide between the CBSE guys and the state board guys itself.

    What does this do? This gets the “I standard” son of mine to talk and
    think better than most graduate guys I am interviewing. I am not
    exaggerating even a little. This is the ground reality. Those guys
    need a lift and “reservations” has not and is not going to do the job.

    The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to
    perhaps appease them. The poor guys don’t know the harm its doing to
    them and rally behind it. This is similar to making the orifice
    wider. These policy makers do not focus on anything more fundamental.
    This is the quick-fix they offer that only makes things worse.

    India today is more financially stronger than before. We should focus
    on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
    the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
    the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for all.

    If the rural kid has the same opportunities that the urban kid has,
    he won’t need any reservations. Our country should invest in opening
    up quality schools everywhere. The system needs overhauling inside
    out. This would see the next generation of people competing on equal
    terms. It will take only 20 years at the max to remove the
    disparities.

    Right now, there is no chance that the rural graduates can be
    considered equal to the urban graduates. They are in fact nowhere
    near.

    Reservations only perpetuate the divide. Those who rally for it do
    not even know what’s happening. They should desist from asking for
    reservations and should start demanding equal education for all from
    the primary school level. The different boards should be abolished.
    There should be one uniform level of education across the country.
    One education for all should be slogan. All kids should have access
    to the same facilities, labs, play grounds etc. Unless this happens,
    things will never change.

    If it doesn’t happen, it will only increase the urban-rural divide
    and will turn into more hatred for the urbanites. We can’t afford
    this. Everyone should sit down and think for a while. Understand what
    is needed and force the governments to get into action. We should
    understand the lack of foresight in offering “reservations” as an
    alternative.

    It will take 20 to 25 years if we undertake these measures, but equal
    education from the basic level will diminish all disparities in one
    generation. We won’t be at loggerheads again on these issues. At
    least our grand children won’t be discussing these things.

    This means opening better schools and revamping our educational
    system totally. It also means that we should pay the teachers the
    highest sums of money to motivate good people to take up teaching.
    The respect there was for teachers should be restored. About 10 days
    ago, a poor professor was beaten to death in North India. All these
    incidents will only aggravate the situation. There are already not
    many good teachers anywhere in the schools or colleges.

    We need good quality output from our schools and colleges very
    quickly. There is already an acute shortage of good workforce in the
    industry. Unless we increase the quality of education and pass it on
    to all sections, we will not be able to meet the demand for skilled
    people.

    Good quality education for everyone is what we need. What do we have
    now? We have unequal education from the basic level. Suddenly, there
    is a widening of the orifice for some students (in the name of
    reservations). They could have done without that. They should have
    been brought to a position in which they could compete on equal terms
    instead. This has not happened in 60 years. Can’t we do any better?

    Thanks and best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  8. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Satyanarayana Pamarty”
    wrote:
    >
    > We should focus
    > on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
    > the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
    > the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for
    all.

    Satya gaarU:

    A straight forward suggestion, but how do you think we can get there
    from here? I am not being facetious. I would sincerely like to know
    what changes – political, social, fiscal – you think would be
    necessary to achieve good, equal quality and equal opportunity
    education for all children.

    Regards,
    Ari Sitaramayya.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Ari Sitaramayya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  9. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “ari_sitaramayya” wrote:

    > A straight forward suggestion, but how do you think we can get there
    > from here? I am not being facetious. I would sincerely like to know
    > what changes – political, social, fiscal – you think would be
    > necessary to achieve good, equal quality and equal opportunity
    > education for all children.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Ari Sitaramayya.

    Dear Sitaramayya gaaru:

    Thank you very much for your message and thanks for asking this of me.
    I don’t know if I am at all competent to be saying all this, but I will
    nevertheless tell what I have in my mind.

    We need some vision in our political activity. We need politicians who
    would have the courage to make the changes that will yield results
    rather than those who sing the song as their predecessors did. Economic
    reforms changed the map of urban India. Now, educational reforms are
    probably necessary to change the map of rural India.

    This means showing strength of conviction to make the changes that
    think-tanks will deem necessary. The politicians should stop thinking
    of small gains and of keeping their seats and should embark on some
    fundamental changes to our educational system. In the late 80s, there
    was talk of a new education policy (about the same time computerization
    was being talked about a lot), but somehow it did not take off while
    computerization did.

    India today has the funds needed for changes in educational policy to
    occur. These funds should be reinvested in our people. If we don’t
    invest in good quality education, we will get into the same vicious
    circle of the past. The funds will vanish in no time and no improvement
    would have happened because of their temporary existence. If we are to
    grow into a really rich nation, we need to have our literacy quality
    levels shooting to the top of the world’s countries.

    1. Boards of education: As I said in my previous post, we need to first
    abolish the many different streams of education that exist. Make it one
    stream. Whether a child is studying in Ladakh or Lakshadweep, there
    should be no difference at least in the board of education.

    That would ensure that the books that will be studied by all children
    are the same. The exams they will take to pass the milestones will be
    the same too. This will level the ground for an even education.

    2. Schools: Increase educational expenditure to the level where all
    schools in the country would be having all the basic facilities. We
    should be ashamed to call a thatched hut without a blackboard a school.
    There are schools in the cities that have four computers in each
    section of a I standard class to compare with.

    The basic facilities I have in mind are teaching aids, adequate and
    proper class rooms, lab facilities, sports gear, playgrounds, toilets
    etc. We should focus on all round growth of a child and not on singular
    aims of bookish knowledge alone. A perfect model school should exist
    for every 10 villages. Since it will be bigger than a regular school in
    a village, it can service kids from all the 10 villages.

    To avoid kids from traveling to and fro by walk, there should be at
    least 10 school buses for each such school catering to each village.

    All these would boost the local economy to the extent possible.

    There is currently a lopsided stress on institutions of higher
    education. There weren’t so many Engineering colleges when I was trying
    to graduate. The privatisation was just starting then. Today, I am
    willing to bet that there are more Engineering colleges than are
    necessary. Quite a few of them have become economically unviable
    because of lack of students. Such colleges and failed institutions
    should be identified and bought or taken over by the government. They
    should be converted to good quality schools.

    3. Attendance: Even if the required infrastructure is in place, we
    cannot ensure attendance in the classes unless we use a carrot and
    stick approach. The carrot is that the kids’ parents will be paid hard
    cash each month in proportion to the attendance of the kid. If there
    are more than two kids to the parents in question, there will be no
    cash to collect from the second child on or some such thing.

    The stick is that if the children don’t show 90+ percent of attendance,
    the family card, rations and other sops will be withdrawn or seriously
    implicated. Both of these things will ensure that full attendance of
    all kids will be maintained. These kids are usually not sent to school
    for the sake of paltry sums that they will earn for their parents.
    India today can reimburse a portion of that money for future good
    returns.

    4. Teachers: Even if we have a level ground, the requisite
    infrastructure and also the students in place, everything will fail
    unless we have adequate number of teachers. Like I said earlier, we
    have to improve the social standing of teachers. In India of the past,
    teachers were equated with God.

    In recent years, we have reduced the profession to the last resort for
    anyone. This should change. Again, you can motivate good people to take
    up the profession by giving high remunerations to teachers. That may
    not work immediately. To immediately get the required numbers of
    teachers in place, the educational policy should be revamped to make
    teaching a compulsory activity after graduating from secondary schools.

    Students who pass out of secondary schools should compulsorily work as
    teachers for one year. This can be split into two phases. The first six
    months, they obtain training to become teachers and the next six
    months, they will work as teachers. Those who want to do away with the
    training can become adult education teachers or primary health workers
    for one whole year.

    The point is that it should be made mandatory for each and every school
    graduate to work in the community for one year before entering into
    higher education. This will give them a perspective of what life is
    like on the other side. If attractive perks and remuneration are
    provided, many might opt to continue the life of a teacher or any other
    community worker. Even if they drop out, there will be a steady stream
    of new teachers to take up the reins every fresh year.

    We can increase the efficiency of the process by giving more points to
    those who opt to work in remote villages. They will then be given a
    higher preference over those who work in lesser remote places for seats
    in higher educational institutions. There will then be a rush of good
    quality teachers lining up for teaching posts in the remote villages.

    5. Equal importance to all subjects: It’s a funny thing in India
    always. I have found a sheepish mentality in our population with regard
    to education. If they feel that one particular course is going to get
    them more money, the whole of the country’s students take up the
    course. When I came out of school, Engineering and medicine were the
    courses that people were rushing mindlessly into.

    If you weren’t able to get into an Engineering college either by fate
    or by design, you were looked down as if you have committed a sin. This
    trend continued for a couple of decades. In the nineties, there were
    more engineers in the country than the country could handle.

    Now, the craze is for Software engineers. There are too many of them
    calling themselves that without jobs in the country. If they land a job
    through campus interviews, they get a job, otherwise, they won’t get
    it. They will then search for some job that sounds similar and if they
    don’t find it, they will be hoping that someday to make it.

    While all this is happening, there is an acute shortage of scientists,
    commerce graduates, economists etc. in the country. This sheepish
    jumping into courses should change. Students need counseling to take up
    a profession that will suit their aptitude. The differences in pay
    structures between professions should be regulated so that there is no
    shortage in any area and a glut in the other.

    —–

    These are some measures that I have in mind. There might be better ones
    out there. They might be expensive too. However, I think these are
    necessaary and I can foresee a new economy kicking off around these
    educational institutions if they happen to come about.

    Schools need furniture; carpenters will find more work. They need
    buildings; construction industry will become stronger. Computer
    centers, book shops, libraries etc will all mushroom in those places. A
    myriad other things will generate new jobs.

    India would be transformed. We will have a truly elite set of young
    people emerging as our country’s citizens in the next quarter of the
    century. They will take the country to higher reaches. This is a win-
    win situation for all.

    If we don’t make any of these changes, we will all suffer. How? The
    growth will be lopsided with no share of the wealth to the have nots.
    The have lots will keep growing. Then, a million horrible things are
    distinct possibilities. Like someone said, for every school we won’t
    open, we will have to open two jails. We cannot let those chaotic
    things to happen. Our policy makers should hasten to change our
    country’s future for all time to come.

    Thanks and best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  10. #
    satyanArAyaNa gArU,

    mIru vrAsina vishayAlu cAla bAgunnAyi.
    ikkaDa amerikAlOni unnata pAThaSAla graMThAlayAlalO
    vidyArthulaku aMdubATulO uMDE pustakAlu nEnu akkaDa
    #MSc# cadivETappuDu kUDa lEdu aMTE atiSayOkti kAdEmO!

    ma~roka vishayamu cheppAli. nEnu madurai viSvavidyAlayaMlO
    tommidi saMvatsarAlu pani chEsAnu. madarAsulAgAka madurai
    cuTTupaTTulalO grAmINa vAtAvaraNamu ekkuva. kAni vidyArthula
    aasakti, curuku ae nAgarika vidyArthiki takkuva kAdu.
    nagarAlalO cadivE vidyArthulaku telivi ekkuva, j~nAnamu
    ekkuva aMTE nEnu oppukOnu. nAgarika vidyArthulaku elA
    samAjamulO naDacukOvAli anE saMgati telusu. padE padE
    sArI, thAMks^ lAMTivi vADuTalO nErparitanamu grAmINa
    vidyArthulaku lEdu. kAni telivitETalalO vAru ae mAtramu
    takkuva vAru kAdu.

    maMchi sadupAyAlu uMTE aMdarU vidyanu abhyasiMcagalavArE.

    mIru iMkoka mATa cheppAru- adEmaMTE dESamaMtaTiki okE
    silabas^ uMDAlani. ee vishayamulO mItO nEnu
    aekIbhaviMcalEnu.

    ee vishayamu pai vE~roka Sirshika kriMda charcha jarigitE
    bAguMTuMdi. nEnu eMduku aa raMDAsutuni gu~riMchi
    saMdESamu paMpAnO ani pratidinamu paSchAttApa paDutunnA!

    – mOhana
    #

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా mOhana | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  11. Please pardon me for some “self dabba” on our work in this relation. The
    organisation, I now work for, is earnestly pursuing this matter.

    To start with, it said that any child out of school is considered to be a
    child labourer.
    Then it adapted Kancheepuram district in Tamil Nadu and started building
    bridge schools and transit schools and started bringing in the children (either
    dropouts or never went to or exisiting child labourers to the transit/bridge
    schools and started educating them and preparing them for the regular school
    albeit a bit late in the age for some.

    Now it is building Village Knowledge centres with three important sections in
    each centre. A Library, a computer centre and a vocational training centre. The
    computer centre enables all the citizens of the village, especially encouraging
    the children, in learning and using the computer not only for education but also
    for entertainment and the results have been very encouraging to say the least.

    In the past two years almost 5000 children (potential child labourers) have
    been mainstreamed in this way.

    By 2010, the vision of the organisation is to work towards equal education for
    the rural children as well on par with those of urban areas.

    Yes, all this needs lots of efforts, money. But that is where the real
    challenges lie. We find some of the government agencies like “Sarva Siksha
    Abhiyaan” lending helping hands. Some nearby industries also help in part. And
    then donors of course.

    But the efforts are there, which matters the most.

    Best wishes
    Hemantha Kumar

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Hemantha Kumar | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  12. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, Hemantha Kumar
    wrote:
    >
    > Please pardon me for some “self dabba” on our work in this relation.
    The organisation, I now work for, is earnestly pursuing this matter.

    Hemantha Kumar gaarU: I am grateful to you and many others like you
    who are involved with NGOs doing educational and social work. Up and
    until recently I did write small checks for such organizations.
    However, I am beginning to have second thoughts on these
    organizations, particularly those working in the area of basic
    education.

    We pay taxes and expect the govt to run good quality schools, as Satya
    gaaru described. Even if they were not of good quality, there were
    functional public schools up until a couple of decades ago. Now, and I
    have first hand knowledge of this, the govt does pay hefty salaries
    for teachers who don’t even bother to go to their school. Teachers are
    not accountable, neither are provincial leaders who interfere with
    schools. The parents end up sending their children to private schools
    at great expense. Destruction of public schools in order to encourage
    private schools is the biggest crime the leaders in AP have committed
    over the years.

    Now where do the NGOs come in. These are run mostly by highly
    motivated, idealistic young people. They do the work that we have
    already paid the govt to do. In other words, they lift the pressure
    off the govt. With NGOs getting involved in education, privatization
    is strengthened and public sphere is weakened. Education should not
    depend upon the charity of anybody, it is the most basic and essential
    responsibility of the govt and all that the NGOs do is undercut that.

    Instead of providing education for a few here and there, if the folks
    involved in NGOs organize to bring pressure on the govt, that is,
    engage in political activity, they do good to every child in the
    state.

    As it stands today, NGOs are co-culprits in the crime, not a solution
    to the problem.

    Regards,
    Ari Sitaramayya.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Ari Sitaramayya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  13. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “ari_sitaramayya”
    wrote:

    >
    > Now where do the NGOs come in. These are run mostly by highly
    > motivated, idealistic young people. They do the work that we have
    > already paid the govt to do. In other words, they lift the
    pressure
    > off the govt. With NGOs getting involved in education,
    privatization
    > is strengthened and public sphere is weakened. Education should
    not
    > depend upon the charity of anybody, it is the most basic and
    essential
    > responsibility of the govt and all that the NGOs do is undercut
    that.

    Good points Ari.

    In a recent conference by blacks for blacks ( watched it on c-span)
    One professor of socialogy taking a question from audience said -yes
    voluntary and charitable, non-profit organisations should be the
    back bone of bringing progress and helping in many areas where money
    is needed, or awareness is needed. etc. With out their help the
    progress will be too slow.

    Another black professor was not for it.

    He said in education the onus shoud always be on the government.
    Education is government ‘s responsibility. They should deliver it to
    all. Sometimes the govt may say there is already enough help being
    given by this and that organization and may try to slip out of their
    responsibility and divert their money to other things.

    The second professor is more right than the first.

    But both arguments can be combined and used effectively for the
    best benefit of people.

    Yes, the government is responsible and should remain responsible for
    education. There should be pressure exerted on government to deliver
    the goods. If they have enough money to do it, they should do it.
    Why even ask others? What for?

    Yet tremendous help can be given by wealthy, and those who have the
    know-how. and if well coordinated with government agencys and plans,
    it augment’s government’s strength. There is quicker progress, and
    lesser distress for people. Projects succeed and get finished
    faster.

    But government at all times must have the responsibility of giving
    proper education to all. It must have complete knowledge and
    supervision on all organizations.
    Similarly all private, charitable orgs should engage in dialogue
    with the govt, be able to question the govt of its work and results,
    before they give the supplemental help.

    No one can run amuck.

    regards
    lyla

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా lyla | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  14. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “ari_sitaramayya” wrote:
    >

    > As it stands today, NGOs are co-culprits in the crime, not a
    solution
    > to the problem.

    I tend to agree with the assessment that NGOs are not a solution to
    the problem.

    A private enterprise in Chittoor owned by our former CM Naidu & his
    wife — crippled an established, competing government owned dairy
    industry in AP — and the facts seem to support that. But a question
    could be asked, if private industry could do it alone and profitably,
    what was govt business with that venture? It makes it irrelevant.

    In education ‘industry’ — the govt education is being made irrelevant
    as well. An experienced mind recently said: ‘public education means
    no education’. A next generation policy must evolve from such a
    situation in order to rectify the situation. Unless there is a close
    and direct accountability to the way our schools are run, there can
    not be a change in the situation. No way the CBN instituted ‘vidyaa
    committee’ system or the later changes in it made by present congress
    cgovt will correct it; those supposedly ‘parents committees’ were also
    created with ‘reservations in view’ and to satisfy the electoral
    politcs at every level starting with villages. Those attempts simply
    poisoned the village atmosphere, in my reading.

    Central planning to change and administer schools provided no evidence
    of improvement. That in fact is the poison pill to the education
    system.

    regards, viplav

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా viplav | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  15. >— In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Satyanarayana Pamarty”
    > wrote:
    > >
    > > We should focus
    > > on equal education for our children right from the start. The kid in
    > > the rural area should get the same education from kindergarten that
    > > the urban kid is getting. Education should be made compulsory for
    >all.
    >
    >Satya gaarU:
    >
    >A straight forward suggestion, but how do you think we can get there
    >from here? I am not being facetious. I would sincerely like to know
    >what changes – political, social, fiscal – you think would be
    >necessary to achieve good, equal quality and equal opportunity
    >education for all children.

    A few more to points:

    Universal education is not same as university education, let alone a
    quality university education which is what matters for jobs.

    I heard that until late 60s most of the education until secondary level used
    to be provided by public sector. It is still the case but they have lost out
    on vastly expanded private sector schools (oxymoronically called “public”
    schools). The trend in past 20 years also would make this very clear.
    Private schools have mushroomed in every corner of cities and even small
    towns. They also tend to get better results than those in public sector.
    Most importantly one has to pay, and pay very heavily in case of some
    schools. (English teaching is a chief ingredient of these schools, often at
    the expense of the mother tongue).

    Same is the case with health sector which has progressed from small time
    doctors to super speciality hospitals. And we have seen efforts by previous
    government to privatize water, which by the way is already privatized in
    terms of tanker supplies in many towns.

    Is there any basic and necessary entity that has not seen its public
    ownership eroded and replaced by private providers in past decades? Given
    all this trend, it is rather absurd to imagine that equal opportunity
    somehow magically emerges out if thin air. We missed the bus already and
    the bus is not going reverse in any near future.

    Regards,
    Srikanth

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Srikanth | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  16. > Satyanarayana Pamarty [pamarty@…] Tue 9/12/2006 1:58 PM

    I of course agree with Satya gAru that the Government should do a lot more
    to improve the education. Who, amongst the supporters of reservations,
    opposes that? But why should abolishing reservations be a pre-condition to
    improving our schools?

    > Suddenly, there is a widening of the orifice for some students
    > (in the name of reservations).

    Pratab Bhanu Mehta, head of Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi, in his
    commentary, “Democracy, Disagreement and Merit,” in June 17, 2006 EPW,
    mentioned a “relaxed standards in and relaxed standards out” phenomenon. But
    he does not offer any evidence for this. (Mehta who was appointed by the PM
    to the Knowledge Commission recently resigned protesting the reservations
    for OBCs.)

    It’s of course common knowledge that the reservation candidates have lower
    scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for anyone to get
    into an educational institution. Once entered, my engineering college
    experience was that everyone took the same tests and was evaluated on the
    same basis. It might be the case that the reservation candidates were not at
    the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class but so
    were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who got out were
    *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.

    Mritiunjoy Mohanty, in a special article, “Social Inequality, Labour Market
    Dynamics and Reservation,” in September 2, 2006 EPW, counters Mehta with his
    experience at IIM Calcutta.

    > It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will hop all its
    life.

    (I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn’t hurt a fly, but I want him to
    think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer would feel at that
    comment.)

    If reservations crippled the candidates so much, then they must have a
    pernicious effect on the service the candidates provided. Since Satya gAru
    lives in Chennai, let us take the case of Tamil Nadu which seems to have one
    of the highest state-mandated quotas in the country. In TN’s state
    institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs are reserved for SC/ST, BC and MBCs who
    constitute 87% of the population.

    Since this quota applied to doctors, nurses, administrators and so on, one
    would expect the health system in TN to be in shambles due to the
    preponderance of these hopping butterflies. But compared to most states,
    TN’s health service is far superior!

    Mohanty cites Patwardhan and Palshikar’s 1992 detailed study that squarely
    rejected the belief that reserved seat doctors were unable to practice.

    > There is not one system of education in this country.

    In the US, the schools have autonomy in choosing their curriculum even at
    the district level. I can understand some general guidelines from the Center
    but why should there be one system for such a diverse country like India?

    We do have common criteria at the state level. For the vast population in
    AP, the main checkpoints of one’s education – 10th class, intermediate and
    the infamous EMCET for engineering and medical admission – have common tests
    and syllabus and I believe were designed to be on par with CBSE. For another
    view – that this common system even at the state level as designed by
    NCERT/SCERT experts is unsuitable for some segments, see #”konnikalalu,
    konnimelakuvalu – sArvatrika vidyatO nA anubhavAlu,” cinavIrabhadruDu,
    pEjIlu 288-289.#

    > When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its wings.

    And the reservation butterfly, unlike the one from Kendriya Vidyalay, didn’t
    have to struggle much! Does finishing the school, even while working as a
    kid, missing the school as the parents seasonally moved in and out and
    subjected to indignities due to one’s caste, count as a struggle?

    #
    “vAnAkAlapu eMDanIDala tEmalO sItAkOkacilukalu sabhacESAyi
    tana sabhallO tanu kUrukupOyina nagarAniki A pilupu aMdalEdu
    kUrukupOyAnu nEnU, nAlOnEnugA, pilicEdAkA AkASaM
    nA iMTikiTikI saMdulOMci, mAmiDiceTTu nIDalOMci

    A sepTeMbar madhAhnnalA gaDipAnu AtmIyula madhya
    pasupunIDala madhya, mahOdyamaMlA prasaristUnna paccikamadhya
    nA bhAshani marcipOyAnu, appuDE A bhAshalu bOdhapaDDAyi
    vadilipeTTAnaMdarinI, appuDE vALLaMtA nA vALLavutArani

    pRthvi viSAlaM, AkASaM viSAlaM, sItAkOkaciluka cinnadi
    jIvitakAlamegirinA cEradoka kosanuMci maroka mUlaki
    grahiMcAnA madhyAhnaM E okka sItAkOkacilukani cUsinA
    adi egirinaMta mErakadE pRthvi, adE AkASamani.”
    — “punaryAnaM,” cinavIrabhadruDu, pEjIlu 254-255.
    #

    > The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to perhaps
    appease
    > them. The poor guys don’t know the harm …

    Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don’t know what’s good for
    them. Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about the lack of
    quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
    everything – education, health and even drinking water! The elite amongst
    them remind us to look up to South Korea, Thailand and Hong Kong but ignore
    that our TODAY’S adult literacy rates are lower than what those countries
    had in 1960 – when they initiated market-based transforms!

    #”pannulu kaDutunnAM, cAtanayinaMta #charity# cEstunnAM;

    mammalni tappupaTTE arhata evarikI lEdu,” aMTArEmO (aMTAmEmO)!#

    Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao

    PS: My observations from the recent trip to AP will have to wait for a
    while.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  17. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Hanuma Kodavalla”
    wrote:
    >
    > > Satyanarayana Pamarty [pamarty@…] Tue 9/12/2006 1:58 PM
    >
    > I of course agree with Satya gAru that the Government should do a
    lot more
    > to improve the education. Who, amongst the supporters of
    reservations,
    > opposes that? But why should abolishing reservations be a pre-
    condition to
    > improving our schools?

    Are you a supporter of reservations, KHR? And if you are, who should
    get these reservations and at what levels of schooling should they
    get reservations? Since we are discussing the subject anew. Is the
    topic of discussion only education in andhra here? to be clear.

    If Satya’s proposal is equal education, and if right from primary
    school if you provide same kind of education, why should be there be
    resevations, later on? Or do you want reservations right from
    kindergarden?
    If education need to be improved every one has to follow the same
    rules. That is why no reservations becomes a pre requisite.

    > he does not offer any evidence for this. (Mehta who was appointed
    by the PM
    > to the Knowledge Commission recently resigned protesting the
    reservations
    > for OBCs.)

    Who are OBCS? I do not know this abbreviation.

    What kind of evidence would you have liked to be shown? Could there
    have been exit exams and tallying of these exam scores with entrance
    exam scores of students admitted with help of and with out help of
    reservations. Could there have been comparisons of performances
    between schools which admit students with no reservations vs
    reservations.

    Wouldn’t teachers face difficulties in classes teaching all students
    at same level, when to begin with they are not at the same level of
    knowledge? Would not other students who make an effort to learn,
    suffer on account of those who can not or will not?

    The goal is to maintain and raise standards. Not to drag them down
    into a pit where none can function.

    > It’s of course common knowledge that the reservation candidates
    have lower
    > scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for
    anyone to get
    > into an educational institution. ….
    > the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class
    but so> were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who
    got out were
    > *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.

    And that is fine in the case you mentioned. By the time they
    graduated they seem to have caught up and are able to meet the set
    standards.
    But if they don’t they have to be failed at that stage .Right? You
    can not give the reservation students different exams, at each step
    of the way and promise never to fail them . And then give them the
    same jobs as others. How can you ?

    > (I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn’t hurt a fly, but I
    want him to
    > think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer would feel at
    that
    > comment.)

    Must feelings be taken into consideration each time a proposal is
    made to educate men? Are should we give priority to the merit of the
    proposal. If feelings need to be part of each education proposal,
    then equal attention should be given to everybody’s feelings. Are
    the feelings of backwards more important and worthy of consideration
    than the forwards? what ever that division may be?

    >
    > Since this quota applied to doctors, nurses, administrators and so
    on, one
    > would expect the health system in TN to be in shambles due to the
    > preponderance of these hopping butterflies. But compared to most
    states,
    > TN’s health service is far superior!

    And how do we know that? What studies compared chennai’s health care
    system with other states health care. Are there reports about it? or
    is it personal experience of health care received in andhra vs
    cennai.

    >
    > Mohanty cites Patwardhan and Palshikar’s 1992 detailed study that
    squarely
    > rejected the belief that reserved seat doctors were unable to
    practice.

    Why not? There is great deal of time that elapses between time of
    admission and graduation. If they were diligent and worked twice as
    hard, may be they did catch up. if they do, they pass the exams
    and graduate. if they don’t they fail and they have to study again
    and pass the exams before they can go out and practice their trade.
    What is the new revelation here?

    My question to you and others:

    What would your personal prefernce be, if one is a patient? Would
    you not care and try select a good doctor. Or at that time would you
    like to care for the feelings of the backwards and try to select
    your doctor on the basis of him being admitted to school because
    of reservation. inferior training, to be kind to them. Would you as
    a patient seek out these criteria to select your family physician?
    a specialist?

    Would graduating out of good scools and training in good hospitals
    mean anything to you at all, while choosing services of a doctor?
    Would you prefer to go to hospitals with good credentialing for the
    doctors or would you not care for any rigorous scrutiny of
    education, and training of a doctor.

    Do you value your heath and life or would you like to consider the
    care providers feelings? at that point.

    > Does finishing the school, even while working as a
    > kid, missing the school as the parents seasonally moved in and out
    and
    > subjected to indignities due to one’s caste, count as a struggle?

    So do children of soldiers, ambassadors, English in India, Indians
    in America, Americans in India, Iraquis in London.etc. Every one has
    hardships of their own. Every one has their own struggles. Why does
    one ascribe dignities to one group only and indignities to the
    other group? Is it because of limited knowledge of only a group’s
    struggles and ignorance of others’?

    Also any person can only know their own indignity. But how can
    anybody ascribe their own indignity to an entire caste or race? Let
    each person decide if they suffered or had a good life on their own.
    No need to control others feelings. No need to spread the contagion.

    Past personal indignities do not have to perpetuate ill feelings and
    hinder progress, hinder setting up good viable programs now for
    all.

    It looks the reason people will not come out of this present
    privileged discriminated classes is because there are now special
    perks that go with it. So they want to massage their hurt feelings,
    keep blackmailing others, keep harping on their struggles and
    disadvantages. They have realised there are lot of easy advantages
    in remaining disadvantaged. They don’t have to study just as hard,
    if they know they will be given special seats, special tests,
    special awards.

    I am not for reservations.

    Reservations corrupt thinking, corrupt education. Reservations are
    divisive, prevent the objectives of equality of men, equal
    privileges,and equal treatment. When you allow reservations to
    continue, you are setting up the same system which is previously
    resented and considered as a failure. You can not correct a wrong by
    doing the same wrong this time to a different set of people. It is
    ridiculous.

    regards
    lyla

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా lyla | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  18. — Hanuma Kodavalla wrote:
    >
    > > I never used the word “caste” on purpose. I believe the real
    > > divisions today are just “rural” and “urban”.
    >
    Tis news item has ample relevance to some of the points
    under discussion:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5345100.stm

    Regards! – mOhana

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా mOhana | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  19. > lylayer [lylayfl@…] Tue 9/19/2006 4:14 PM

    > Are you a supporter of reservations, KHR?

    Yes.

    > That is why no reservations becomes a pre requisite.

    The constitution has a directive that the state must “endeavor” to give
    eight years of free and compulsory education to all children by 1960! Even
    after 46 years, this hasn’t happened! (I think this should be increased to
    12 years of schooling.)

    Reservations are in *higher* education. I don’t understand why abolishing
    reservations is a *pre-requisite* to the Government meeting the primary and
    secondary education goals. Can you explain the logic please?

    > Who are OBCS?

    Other Backward Classes. MBCs for Most …

    > What kind of evidence would you have liked to be shown?

    That the graduating reserved candidates did not pass the same tests as the
    open candidates.

    > Wouldn’t teachers face difficulties in classes teaching all
    > students at same level, when to begin with they are not at
    > the same level of knowledge?

    There is some minimum criteria to get into any degree program. Classes
    always have students at different levels. Teachers should know how to handle
    that.

    > Would not other students who make an effort to learn,
    > suffer on account of those who can not or will not?

    I haven’t seen this suffering. So, reservation candidates cannot and will
    not learn?!

    > Not to drag them down into a pit where none can function.

    Show some evidence that our Government engineering and medical colleges are
    in the pits.

    There are many donation colleges where the candidates’ scores may be lower
    than some of the reserved candidates in a Government college. Does one have
    the same concerns about the standards there? Or is it just good business?
    Rs. 30+ lakhs for an MBBS seat! What’s that Emerson said about money?

    > But if they don’t they have to be failed at that stage .Right?

    Yes. That’s what the institutes do – whether one is a reserved candidate or
    not.

    > And how do we know that? What studies compared chennai’s …

    See Dr`eze and Sen, pages 213-218. It has references to the surveys and
    Leela Visaria’s study.

    > What is the new revelation here?

    Disproves the hopping butterflies theory.

    > Must feelings be taken into consideration each time a proposal is
    > made to educate men?
    > Are the feelings of backwards more important and worthy of
    > consideration than the forwards? …
    > try select a good doctor …
    > Or at that time would you like to care for the feelings of the backwards

    My parenthetical remark is grossly misinterpreted on several fronts. The so
    called proposal to “educate” men was that the reservation butterfly can
    never fly – it will hop all its life.

    If I were a reservation candidate at Guntur Medical College but got my
    degree after passing all the required tests, what does that comment mean to
    me? I can never be a competent doctor? Why? Don’t I have a certified degree
    I worked hard for? I am branded an incompetent doctor *for life* just
    because I got in through reservation even though I got out as a qualified
    doctor! You may think it’s highly “educating” but I find it simply inhuman.
    I know Satya gAru wouldn’t have meant it that way, but I had to point out
    unfortunately that’s what it meant.

    I made it clear in my post what it means to be a qualified engineer
    or doctor. These questions about if feelings of backwards more important
    than
    others or do we choose the doctor based on feelings – I don’t see how they
    can be based on my remark.

    > So do children of soldiers, ambassadors, English in India …
    > Why does one ascribe dignities to one group only and indignities
    > to the other group?

    For some reason, the constitution writers felt the so called untouchables’
    children suffered more than the ambassadors’ children. Why? Unfortunately,
    one needs to study history for that.

    > They don’t have to study just as hard …

    It’s not that they don’t or can’t study; they lack the money to have the
    *right* preparation to get through those entrance exams. With those
    residential colleges in Vijayawada, Intermediate costs upwards of Rs. 60,000
    per year.

    If one has at least a few acres, one can sell an acre or two and send the
    kid to Narayana, Vijnana or Chaitanya residential and gamble on getting into
    medicine or engineering. But most folks in the lower-castes don’t have even
    one acre of land. #pogAku grEDiMg ki pOtE rOjuku pAtika rUpAyalostAy. pogAku
    nATlakupOtE ADamanishiki nalabhai, magamanishiki aravai vastAy. avI ippaTi
    kUli rETlu.#

    > Reservations are divisive, … It is ridiculous.

    I agree in this debate not all arguments have the same intellectual rigor as
    that planes falling argument. For yet another argument, see Sen’s “Merit and
    Justice”: http://pup.princeton.edu/chapters/s6818.pdf .

    Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  20. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Hanuma Kodavalla”
    wrote:

    Dear KHR gAru:

    Thank you very much for your reply.

    > > It can be called a butterfly, but it will never fly. It will hop
    > > all its life.
    >
    > (I know Satya gAru is a nice guy and wouldn’t hurt a fly, but I
    > want him to think for a moment how a reservation seat engineer
    > would feel at that comment.)

    First things first. I apologize for my comment if it in any way hurt
    anyone. As most of you know by now, that was not my intention.

    > If reservations crippled the candidates so much, then they must
    > have a pernicious effect on the service the candidates provided.
    > Since Satya gAru lives in Chennai, let us take the case of Tamil
    > Nadu which seems to have one of the highest state-mandated quotas
    > in the country. In TN’s state institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs
    > are reserved for SC/ST, BC and MBCs who constitute 87% of the
    > population.

    I reiterate that I am for equality. If reservations worked, the words
    SC/ST, BC and MBCs should have gone out of fashion by now. They
    haven’t. Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.

    I too feel sad that the state sponsored schools haven’t kept abreast
    with private schools. What I am asking the state or whomsoever to do
    is to correct this by providing free education to the level of
    private schools to one and all. That should be our aim. Not
    perpetuating what apparently are fruitless pursuits.

    I never used the word “caste” on purpose. I believe the real
    divisions today are just “rural” and “urban”.

    > > There is not one system of education in this country.
    >
    > In the US, the schools have autonomy in choosing their curriculum
    > even at the district level. I can understand some general
    > guidelines from the Center but why should there be one system for
    > such a diverse country like India?

    I look forward to receiving mOhana rAvu gAri message on this before I
    respond. May be there is a lot more to learn here.

    > > When a butterfly struggles out of the orifice, it grows its
    wings.
    >
    > And the reservation butterfly, unlike the one from Kendriya
    > Vidyalay, didn’t have to struggle much! Does finishing the school,
    > even while working as a kid, missing the school as the parents
    > seasonally moved in and out and subjected to indignities due to
    > one’s caste, count as a struggle?

    It certainly does. I wanted that struggle to be removed. Was I asking
    for something wrong? I want the reservation butterfly to also be a
    kendriya vidyalaya butterfly? Am I asking for too much?

    > > The policy makers dangle the reservations before the masses to
    > > perhaps appease them. The poor guys don’t know the harm …
    >
    > Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don’t know what’s
    > good for them. Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about
    > the lack of quality education? …

    They better protest. Are you with me?

    > #”pannulu kaDutunnAM, cAtanayinaMta #charity# cEstunnAM;
    > mammalni tappupaTTE arhata evarikI lEdu,” aMTArEmO (aMTAmEmO)!#

    Bulls-eye!🙂

    Thanks and best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  21. — Satyanarayana Pamarty wrote:
    >
    > I look forward to receiving mOhana rAvu gAri message on this before I
    > respond. May be there is a lot more to learn here.
    >
    I donot know how much of this is going to be suitable
    under Indian conditions, be it AP or TN. In India
    it is the state that foots the bill of education.
    In the US, it is the local authorities that bear
    the financial burden of educating the children.
    This reflects in the quality and the facilities in
    school districts. The education in the Montgomery
    county, MD (close to Washington, DC) thus is quite
    different from that in the neighbouring rural
    Frederick county where I live. The amount alloted to
    education in India is extremely meagre.

    This will be a bit boring for the residents of US.
    Anyway, in the US, school education is local, more or
    less entirely dependent on the money raised through
    property taxes. In fact, half the income of the
    counties goes towards the school education. The state
    gives only nominal grants and partial funds for new school
    construction.

    The advantage here is- the local school board decides on
    the curriculum and standards. The disadvantage is if the
    county is not rich, then the schools are poorer in
    facilities. So there is abig disparity in the facilities
    from one school system to another in the same state.
    All the students (private and public) take standardised
    tests that are common to the whole country. The college
    admissions, to an extent, is based on the performance
    in these tests. Sports like basketball, (American) football,
    swimming, etc as well as music including bands and
    cheerleading form an integral part of the education.
    At the high school level, there is choice in selecting
    subjects. Many times, the bright kids earn college
    credits even in high school.

    As I mentioned, the standards are not uniform.
    The inner cities and rural schools are relatively below
    par compared to the urban and semi-urban school systems.
    With the paucity of funds, slowly but surely, choices
    are becoming less. With some exceptions, even at the school
    level, a segregation occurs. The white and the Asian kids
    take more advanced courses like maths, science, etc.
    and the African-American and the Hispanic students take
    the easier courses. This is not a generalisation.
    There are exceptions to this. Even though almost
    all students (>95%) graduate after 12 years of schooling,
    the value of the diplomas is not the same. Students
    who take tougher courses get admission in elite schools
    (Harvard, Princeton, etc.) and the so-so students
    are admitted to the community colleges and state universities.

    Education is free in public schools up to the 12th grade.
    But college education is very costly. In elite schools
    the fees can run into as much as 50 to 100,000 dollars / year.
    The undergraduate degree is a four-year course. But
    students take more than 4 years to complete the degree.
    The aid they get in college is income based. There are
    very few merit based fellowships in the college.

    Regards! – mOhana

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా mOhana | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  22. Since this is my first post, I will begin with a brief self-intro.

    My name is Srinivas (you can call me VS, if it makes it easy for you). I
    live in Hyderabad and work for a software company. I am maried and have
    5-year old daughter.

    I picked up the habit of reading from my brother. Ismail school of poetry
    has a great appeal to me. Also, I like reading essays and articles written
    cogently. In several ways, I consider myself a beginner.

    I have been following the discussions on RB for past several months. I have
    learnt a lot of things, perhaps, in hurry. But I am sure, I have learnt
    atleast a few things that I will retain for the days to come.

    I have been following the discussion on the subject of Reservations,
    Education and Government policies. I wanted to participate in it and learn
    from it.

    Here are a few random thoughts:

    KHR: “Reservations is not *the* solution; it’s only one of a few necessary
    measures. But thanks to some anti-reservationists, that gets the most
    attention!”

    I get your point. But I think, that’s because reservations are divisive,
    they definitely cause heart-burn for the other “deprived” lot. There is a
    lot more that can be said on this but I will move on.

    I am sure KHR wouldn’t reject valid arguments from Anti-Reservationists, if
    offered.

    Satya: “We do not offer any call centre or software jobs in the company I
    work for. So, people who can be considered average come for these
    interviews.”

    Satya, I have had the chance of conducting a few interviews and I have
    worked with several people. I can tell you that you don’t always get to
    interact with the best and the brightest, even in the IT industry.

    In fact, I have seen more active minds in this forum than anywhere else.

    KHR: “even while working as a kid, missing the school as the parents
    seasonally moved in and out and subjected to indignities due to
    one’s caste, count as a struggle?”

    Satya has broadened his definition of “struggle” to include the travails of
    the students from poor communities. But does that struggle alone better
    equip the victims to excel in their profession?

    More over, this leads us on to the question of how to handle the creamy
    layer (doesn’t it?)

    On your quote from the story “Gated Communities”

    (> #”pannulu kaDutunnAM, cAtanayinaMta #charity# cEstunnAM;
    > mammalni tappupaTTE arhata evarikI lEdu,” aMTArEmO (aMTAmEmO)!#), I have
    two questions for you and the other members of RB.

    1. Seriously, what do you expect our professionals ? apart from paying
    taxes and contributing to the charities?

    I am asking this question because I would like to make a better contribution
    to the society but I do not know what to do (of course, all RBites can
    answer this question)

    1. A few weeks ago, I meant to start off my RB conversations with a
    discussion on Akkiraju’s story that you quoted from. I thought that the
    writer was portraying the Achievers’ Disquiet in this story. And that, he
    did very effectively.

    What is the source of this guilt? Is it our compassionate soul trying to
    express itself? Or is it the moral code imposed by our literary/cultural
    environment? As Ayn Rand would ask, “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

    I will end this mail with one statement of concurrence and one advise that I
    picked up from the book “Falling Over Backwards ? An Essay Against
    Reservations and Judicial Populism” (Arun Shourie).

    There are people who deserve to be helped.

    The individual, and not the group should be the unit of State policy.

    Regards
    Srinivas

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Srinivas | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  23. > Srinivasa Chary Vuruputuri [schary.vuruputuri@…] Wed 9/20/2006
    10:52 AM

    > … this is my first post …
    > Ismail school of poetry has a great appeal to me.

    VS, welcome to RB! I look forward to reading more of your writings on Ismail
    and others.

    > … you don’t always get to interact with the best and the brightest,
    > even in the IT industry.
    > In fact, I have seen more active minds in this forum than anywhere else.

    To prove your point, most of the active posters here are not from IT.🙂

    > I think, that’s because reservations are divisive,
    > they definitely cause heart-burn for the other “deprived” lot.

    There’s a reason why the constitution mandated reservations. Our society has
    deep divisions and the laws are not made in some imagined world. I agree
    they definitely cause heart-burn for most upper-caste folks whether they are
    “deprived” or not. And whatever might be our disagreements on reservations,
    let us keep in perspective what these deprivations are for different groups.
    I don’t know if you experienced the village life. Read M. N. Srinivas’s “The
    Remembered Village,” page 197 when his shortcomings were brought home
    “poignantly.” That was more than fifty years ago. But I can reveal some
    poignant things from a trip to my village last month.

    > … the question of how to handle the creamy layer …

    Yes, it must be addressed.

    > What do you expect our professionals – apart from paying taxes and
    > contributing to the charities?

    We professionals have deep differences on social issues

    If you like Rand, you want Government limited to the military, the police
    and the courts – that, if I remember from my youth – and I could be totally
    wrong, was her brand of Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal. If you like Sen’s
    view of a just society, you want the Government to play a significant role
    in education, health and social security. And those two thinkers cover only
    a part of the political spectrum. Based on one’s convictions, there are
    different paths to take.

    > The individual, and not the group should be the unit of State policy.

    The argument that we are all just human beings and the policy shouldn’t talk
    about this or that group is not new. It’s just an escape from addressing the
    inequalities. See Sen’s comments on “Social Justice” in his interview:
    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2204/stories/20050225005401300.htm

    I’m more influenced by my village life and liberal thinkers like Amartya Sen
    than Ayn Rand or Arun Shourie.

    Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  24. > Satyanarayana Pamarty [pamarty@…] Wed 9/20/2006 2:40 AM

    > If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
    > should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven’t.
    > Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.

    Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had worked? That
    the workforce in several jobs represents the cross section of the society
    better today than before the reservations – does that count?

    I understood Srikanth Bandi’s post as a critique on the privatization of
    education and health and not that of reservations.

    > I never used the word “caste” on purpose. I believe the real
    > divisions today are just “rural” and “urban”.

    It’s hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste. Yes,
    there’s a divide between rural and urban as well as within rural and within
    urban.

    > They better protest. Are you with me?

    I’m with you. But I’m also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)

    Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Kodavalla Hanumantha Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 22, 2006

  25. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Hanuma Kodavalla”
    wrote:
    >
    > It’s of course common knowledge that the reservation candidates
    have lower
    > scores than others, but there are minimal qualifications for

    Could you please clarify if you meant the ‘averages’
    for “reservation candidates” or specific individuals or in general.

    I followed for a while the OBC categories ‘A’ and ‘D’ profiles
    (simply because I had a few close friend from thost categories) —
    they individually most of the time scored more than I did in any
    school test; on average the competition in those two categories
    rivaled that of open category (at the time I followed those back in
    the 90s). It is false to say that those two categories in general
    have lower scores than others unless ofcourse one is trying to
    distinguish between scoring 59 marks out of 100 vs. scoring 60 out
    of 100. To me anyone who scores 59 or 60 fall at the same level.

    > same basis. It might be the case that the reservation candidates
    were not at
    > the top of the class, may be some were at the bottom of the class
    but so
    > were some of the open candidates too. In any case, those who got
    out were
    > *qualified* engineers irrespective of how they got in.

    If you looked at the dropout rates there is a great difference among
    the two sections. I don’t have a study on hand but I believe
    someone looked at drop out rates in engineering colleges by category
    of admission — I actually do not mind someone failing repeatedly
    before passing a test but dropouts tend to waste resources without a
    result (if it is private resources I have no issue with it as it is
    the case with private colleges, but the case of scarce public
    resources would be different).

    > of the highest state-mandated quotas in the country. In TN’s state
    > institutions, 69% of the seats/jobs are reserved for SC/ST, BC and
    MBCs who
    > constitute 87% of the population.
    >

    Someone is losing here with only 69% reserved for 87% of the
    population (that is a 18% gap), should it not be 87% reserved??
    What is the argument for not expanding such a quota in equal
    proportion?

    > the infamous EMCET for engineering and medical admission – have
    common tests
    > and syllabus and I believe were designed to be on par with CBSE.

    minimum qualification at the EMCET are violated I believe, I don’t
    if it is the case with IIT or IIM entrances. I read recently somone
    scoring 1 mark (I am not how that is possible but it happens all the
    time I think even when a multiple choice test is given) was made
    eligible for admission on the basis of filling the quota (it may be
    a case where, if an institution does not fill the quota it stands to
    lose government subsidy) — may be a good public policy wrt to
    electoral politics but hardly a responsible one.

    > Well, the masses are poor, uneducated and clearly don’t know
    what’s good for
    > them. Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about the
    lack of
    > quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
    > everything – education, health and even drinking water! The elite

    well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
    not complain — in fact, they complain about the big government
    (that rarely provides these three above).

    -viplav-

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా viplav | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  26. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “viplavreddy”
    wrote:
    > > Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about the
    > > lack of
    > > quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of privatizing
    > > everything – education, health and even drinking water! The elite
    >
    > well, the residents of the country most of these are private seem to
    > not complain — in fact, they complain about the big government
    > (that rarely provides these three above).
    >
    > -viplav-
    >

    Viplav gaarU, do you have a country in mind where the basic education
    is mostly private? To my knowledge basic education (up to high school)
    in every prosperous country of the world is public with private
    schools existing as auxiliaries. While the leaders of India have
    virtually destroyed public education, privatizing everything under
    pressure from external forces, there is not one politician in the
    United States who argues for privatization of basic education. All the
    arguments are about allowing private schools to compete with public
    schools for taxpayer money.

    Regards,
    Ari Sitaramayya.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Ari Sitaramayya | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  27. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “ari_sitaramayya”
    wrote:
    >
    > — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “viplavreddy”
    > wrote:
    > > > Why don’t the educated and enlightened protest about the
    > > > lack of
    > > > quality education? Most of them seem to be enamored of
    privatizing
    > > > everything – education, health and even drinking water! The
    elite
    > >
    > > well, the residents of the country most of these are private
    seem to
    > > not complain — in fact, they complain about the big government
    > > (that rarely provides these three above).
    > >
    > > -viplav-
    > >
    >
    > Viplav gaarU, do you have a country in mind where the basic
    education
    > is mostly private? To my knowledge basic education (up to high
    school)
    > in every prosperous country of the world is public with private

    Ari gaaru kshamiMcaali — I thought the context was
    about ‘education, reservations & govt policy’: I hardly know any
    country that advocates or implements reservations in basic education
    (meaning, thru 10th grade in Indian context or 12th/high school in
    the US). May be the proponents of reservations can explain: would
    you like to advocate that as well?? if not, why not?

    My comment was wrt to higher education — one could argue that to be
    publicly funded/subsidized as well — but hardly govt controlled wrt
    to quotas etc.,

    Let me take this chance to ask our friend Lyla a question:

    When you say you oppose reservations, would you extend that to
    Affirmative Action programs as well?

    Viplav

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Viplav | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  28. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Hanuma Kodavalla”
    wrote:

    > > If reservations worked, the words SC/ST, BC and MBCs
    > > should have gone out of fashion by now. They haven’t.
    > > Like Srikanth gaaru said, we missed the bus already.
    >
    > Satya gAru, is that the criteria to measure if the policy had
    > worked? That the workforce in several jobs represents the cross
    > section of the society better today than before the reservations –
    > does that count?

    Yes, it does. May be I kept my bar high on the expected results.

    To make it clear one more time, I am not at all against people
    benefiting from reservations. I have only been saying that
    reservations haven’t delivered what ought to have been delivered. Now
    that we have tried it, and achieved limited results, we have to try
    something new to achieve better results. That’s all.

    Let’s look at it another way. Let’s for a moment forget those who
    have benefited from reservations. Reservations helped some people in
    the under-priveleged sections of our society. No question, but how
    many of those is the question? Did everyone benefit from the
    reservations in those sections? What would be the percentage of those
    who would have benefited?

    Reservations help those who have passed XII standard (normally). How
    many in the under-priveleged sections made it to this level in the
    last 60 years? Did everyone make it? If many did not make it, what
    about them? What was their percentage in the society?

    What is our state’s educational policy towards those who have not
    benefited from the reservations? I suggested that education be
    provided to all. To reach them, our policies should change. That’s
    what I meant. I did not say reservations haven’t changed our society
    at all.

    I am saying reservations haven’t been enough, and the progress made
    is not enough. Reservations polarised the differences and
    strengthened the divisions and set us on a retrograde path. The
    divisions are even more hard and rigid now than they were at the time
    of Independence (I think).

    As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community we
    belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
    twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
    reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.

    > I understood Srikanth Bandi’s post as a critique on the
    > privatization of education and health and not that of reservations.

    Yes, but he also said that state sponsored schools lost out along the
    way. I took off from that comment.

    > It’s hard to talk about reservations without invoking the caste.
    > Yes, there’s a divide between rural and urban as well as within
    > rural and within urban.

    These divisions cannot be killed unless there is a level field and an
    equal opportunity for all. I would love to see a day when a free
    school would be coveted by even those who can afford an education for
    the quality of education that it offers. When that happens, those
    schools will make all the difference needed. The million divisions
    that are there will go.

    > > They better protest. Are you with me?
    >
    > I’m with you. But I’m also with Justice Chinnappa Reddy.:-)

    Thanks. We will come to some consensus here before we start our
    protest I am sure.🙂

    Thanks and best regards

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  29. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Satyanarayana Pamarty”
    wrote:

    > As kids, neither I nor my friends knew or bothered what community
    we
    > belonged to. We were all friends and belonged to one class. In the
    > twelfth, we were suddenly woken up to what seemed like a new found
    > reality. Lines were drawn, complexes set in.
    >

    Hi Satya :

    I really liked everything you said so far on this subject.

    Why not think of ‘caste complex’ as a group of diseases which are
    undermining the welfare of society a) by hindering the education of
    children and adults b) by promoting violence among people C) by
    taking away government’s time to suppress riots instead of investing
    time in good projects.

    Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.

    Attach more information on the real numbers of young people that
    need education, And some maps of Andhra to indicate where schools
    are to be placed and how many there need to be. A rough estimate of
    cost -of procuring site for each school, building, and equipping it
    with edu tools and to make it into a turn key operation.

    Currently there is lot of wealth in the world and more
    philonthropists than before to fund worthy projects.

    Why not submit it to Bill Gates Foundation. We know Gates is both
    into cleaning up diseases, and providing education. This a very
    suitable project for his foundation, in a country he is very much
    interesed in.

    These are concrete projects, to be done in an organized way. If done
    correctly they will turn into good revenue generating centers which
    can be sold to government or private sector to run. They provide edu
    to kids and employment to many more people as you said. I hear some
    doctors who returned ti India from here, have built universities,
    medical schools and are running them successfully.

    The population in India is just too big, for any government to
    handle. People simply got into the lazy and easy habit of harping
    on corruption in politics and that continuosly erodes on the
    credibility of the responsible people. The numbers in India are
    staggering. To figure out how to provide, food, shelter, edu to all
    is a mammoth task.

    It is very hard to function for the government in a negative
    atmosphere. Intellectuals in Andhra and outside India should rally
    around Andhra government. Give it support. Make sure worthy projects
    are taken up and concluded and then maintained. It is not a crime to
    take outside help and build up the state/ country and get stronger.

    It is no longer fashionable to be robinhoods, renegade writers and
    useless preachers. Doing, producing, making money is chic.

    Schooling had always been a big industry in Andhra. From what you
    say, It looks as though there is need for more schools and some
    modernisation , good set of rules, good organisation and management.

    I will go the route of submitting a plan to Bill Gates and see if
    funds can be secured for such a project. In my mind it is very
    worthy project, not so hard to accomplish either. Takes a few years
    to come to frution, but certainly can be done.

    Projects can always be put together and be completed. Love doing
    projects. There is gain for all.

    Not interested in nebulous things as hurt feelings, unfulfilled
    desires, lost opportunities, desparations out of disparities – this
    kind of sissy fluff, keep floating about like ‘muscae volitantes.’

    Thanks
    lyla

    P.S: Welcome to the new member VS, who did all the right things,
    praised rb enough and got right down to business of discussion.:-):-)

    No. Sir ! VS! You are not your brother’s keeper. Nor am I. All
    need to keep up and earn their upkeep. To keep it simple.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా lyla | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  30. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “lylayer” wrote:
    > I really liked everything you said so far on this subject.

    Thanks Lyla.

    >
    > Then why not elaborate your education proposal as a remedy.

    It cannot be called a remedy until we brainstorm it fully. From my
    room, overlooking the next building’s toilets, this seems to be
    okay.🙂

    There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
    overlooking better or worse things. They all haven’t spoken up yet.

    The others have to speak too. If we detach emotions and think of the
    common good, we will arrive at the right solutions. Everyone has to
    bring in their ideas. Then people have to come to a consensus. More
    heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
    proof as possible.

    I think I have said all I need to say. Now, I want the others to beat
    this rug. Let’s eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
    should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
    concur.

    Your idea about going to the Bill Gates Foundation for funds should
    work if we have a fool proof plan with us.

    Thanks and best wishes

    Satya

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Satya | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  31. — In racchabanda@yahoogroups.com, “Satyanarayana Pamarty”
    wrote:

    > There are many brilliant people on the forum who have their rooms
    > overlooking better or worse things. They all haven’t spoken up yet.

    > heads are better than one. We need to make the proposals as fool
    > proof as possible.

    > Let’s eventually compile all the ideas. Only after that, we
    > should set about the action. For it to work, all the people should
    > concur.

    Makes good sense. Will continue to follow and participate in the
    discussion.

    thanks
    lyla

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా lyla | సెప్టెంబర్ 23, 2006

  32. In a democratic society religion ,education and government jobs etc are interrelated.In a democracy the votes are counted.They are not weighed.Reservations in education or government jobs has become a vote catching slogan.As such they will not go in the near future.What can not be cured must be endured.Is there any guarantee that if reservations are completely abolished seats go to desrving,needy and guniene people?I think most of them will be sold.
    Karavadi Raghava Rao

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Karavadi Raghava Rao | సెప్టెంబర్ 27, 2006

  33. Dear Satish TVS,
    Please contact me as early as possible.
    Regards.
    Ganesh.

    వ్యాఖ్య ద్వారా Sree Ganesh | ఏప్రిల్ 13, 2007


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